Hi,

My 2 yr old is seriously behind on vacinations. She is due to go in next week to start getting her vacinations brought up to date. One of thereasons she is behind is because she hasn't been growing and hasn't been all that healthy. Now she is dairy free and starting to show signs of improvement, but still has issues. We are about to start a gluten challenge with her. She has been tested - inconclusive.

My problem is that she still isn't all that healthy. We can't get the allergic reactions under full control. Had to cancel the allergist appt. So she still gets this itchy rash and her stomach hurts and sounds like a popcorn machine. So she is about to start a gluten challenge. I am wondering if I am just crazy to post pone this vaccine catch up appt again.

(I know vaccines have nothing to do with Celiacs. I just don't like getting vaccinated when not really healthy.)

What do you think?

Don't worry about it and get the child caught up?

[list=2]Or, wait a month and see if the gluten challenge starts making her feel better, then get the vaccines started again? [/list]

I don't know a lot about vaccinations, but I do agree that it's probably not a good idea for someone whose immune system isn't healthy. You might want to inquire about the vaccines that she's not getting and ask about the symptoms of the diseases. You're obviously very aware of your daughter's health so knowing the symptoms will help you bring her to the doc right away if you think she's got anything. From what I can remember, most vaccines are for diseases that aren't that common but can be serious if there's an outbreak.

That is a tough one! *Generally* a doctor won't give a vaccination to a child who is *severely* unwell or is unwell due to a virus, infection, etc. Without actually knowing anything about her actual clinical state, it's hard to say if just being malnourished or "run down" would exclude her from getting vaccinated.

Another issue is her allergies. There are some vaccines that children with specific allergies cannot have, and children who have reacted to a vaccination with an anaphylatic response are usually not vaccinated again after that. The doctor may also suggest that she receives an "inactive" version of any vaccine that is also given as a "live" version. It is possible that the doctor may want to wait until her current allergy outbreak (and over-reactive immune system) have settled down. There is some reason to suggest that certain vaccinations may trigger autoimmunity in those with the genes for it (possibly due to the actual virus and/or the stimulation of the immune system), but that's not conclusive yet.

You will have to discuss this with her doctor. The risk must not outweigh the benefit.


Best of luck and I hope she feels better soon!

P.S. In my opinion, an "inconclusive" biopsy is a positive one. You can't be a "little bit pregnant" (sorry if someone else here has used this line!). If there is *any* damage to the intestines, that is consistant with (perhaps early) Celiac Disease.

Very tough question, with good thoughts above.

If you do decide to get "caught up," I would UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES let them give her more than one vaccine at a time. There are NO long-term studies indicating that multiple vaccines are safe even in perfectly healthy people.

I would choose which vaccine to give her based on the severity of the disease it prevents (I would choose the polio vaccine over the MMR).

And while we don't know if there is a link between celiac and vaccines, Dr. Andrew Wakefield has shown pretty clearly that there is a link between the MMR vaccine and autism--and the autistic kids in his study ALL had leaky guts. So if your daughter is having leaky gut problems (like celiac), I would hold off on all vaccines until that is resolved.

Ditto....

I would probably ask the pediatrician for his thoughts. It wouldn't hurt to call ahead and explain your concerns. My doctor would never vaccinate while sick with a virus or bacterial infection but my son was sick most of his life with Celiac before he was diagnosed at 4 and he was vaccinated throughout that time. No one seemed concerned about it. I would ask the doctor.

Nicole

Thanks for all the replies. Sometimes I just need a reality check to make sure I am not going off the deep end with the everything affects allergy/celiac issues.

Background: Older child has anaphylactic nut allergy. 2 yr old has no Allergist diagnosed allergies. She has a reaction to dairy and shellfish. Gastro agrees with Dairy reaction. He claims it is a lactose intolerance. Since she reacts to trace amounts of dairy, whether it is a lactose intolerance or true allergy really is not that concerning to me. The fact that the same reaction comes from Dairy and shellfish makes me believe it is an allergy. I am setting up an allergist appt. Had one that I had to cancel already.

I cancelled the vaccinations catchup appt for now.

We will be starting the gluten-free diet on the 2 yr old possibly next week or the following.

Also debating about the Entero lab avenue. Would this be helpful for us....unsure.

*Haven't heard the "little bit pregnant" comment before. That's great. You may have a point that I hadn't thought of before. They couldn't prove that she did not have celiacs. So she has enough damage from something in those intestines.

Unfortunately, many doctors DO vaccinate when the child is sick, as long as they don't have a fever. And, of course, celiac disease does not cause a fever!

I'm starting to suspect that most pediatricians only know what they were taught in medical school as far as vaccines go. Our pediatrician, whom I like and respect, told me that, to his knowledge, the first MMR only lasts 5 years or so, which is (he believed) why a second one was required before entering kindergarten.

But when I did a bit of Internet research, I found out that the second MMR is only required because 5% of the kids who got the first one did not develop immunity. Interestingly, I could not find out whether or not that same 5% developed immunity after the second shot. (Maybe they do, but I couldn't find any study or research saying so.)

But the frightening thing is, our pediatrician really believed that EVERYONE needed that second shot in order to be immune. And 95% of the kids who get that second shot don't need it.

The reason I was researching this is that our son was "overdue" for the second shot, and we didn't want him to get mumps as teenager and risk sterililty, The mumps-only shot does contain thimerosal, so that was out, So we did a titer (a blood test that measures immunity), and the pediatrician told us not to get our hopes up, as the original shot (he believed) only lasted 5 years, and our son was already 10.

Lo and behold, his immunity levels were 4 times the minimum--which was what made me think, "this doesn't make sense," and start researching the MMR.

Edit: "How effective is this vaccine?
Approximately 95% of individuals become immune to mumps after a single dose of vaccine. The second dose of MMR vaccine is intended to produce immunity in the 5% of persons who did not respond to the first dose." from http://www.vaccineinformation.org/mumps/qandavax.asp

I'm convinced that my daughter was poisoned by vaccines at six months old. At that time, we didn't know she was a celiac, and we couldn't figure out why she wasn't growing. She had skin problems, cronic diarrhea, and a strange "smoker's caugh" by six months old. Otherwise, her personality seemed fairly normal --little fussy, probably due to the stomach discomforts-- but that was all.

When we went in for immunizations at six months, she had a very odd reaction. She went from docile baby to Frankenstein. I remember, about two days after that six-month immunization, she was told "No" about something or other, and then she freaked out and started banging her own head on the wooden part of her bed. She also showed odd signs which reminded me of autism shortly thereafter: flicking the light switch and staring at lights when she was being changed, opening and closing a lid like she was stuck in a feedback loop, and screaming in fear when we turned on the television or radio. Later, she also had difficulty remembering new words and she started to forget words she had previously known.

Now these symptoms continued to persist and even increase, until we got her on the celiac diet. However, I chose not to immunize her, because (in spite of my doctors' advice to the contrary ), I knew something went seriously wrong after that first immunization at six months. Once we figured out that my daughter was a celiac (age 2), her "autistic-like" symptoms slowly started to disappear-- the diet was having a positive impact. By age 3, there were no autistic-like symptoms left, and her personality did a 180 degree turn !

I thank God that I had the courage to tell my doctors to go to heck. They kept saying "immunize her! There's nothing wrong with your kid!" but I knew better. My advice to you is, keep your child on the celiac diet for at least one full year before you continue updating those immunizations.

After what we've gone through with our daughter, my husband and I firmly believe that there IS a link between autism and digestive disorders like celiac disease. And that link is immunizations. Have courage, stay strong, and wait until your child is 100 percent healthy before you immunize!!!

This is interesting because 5 years ago my friend, who was about 28, was told after she gave birth by c section that she was no longer immuned and needed to be re-vaccinated with MMR. Seven months later, I was in the same situation and in the same hospital and was told the same thing. In between my sister gave birth in this hospital and was not told this. So both me and my friend were now no longer immune, how many other people are not either. We were born in the same month of the same year, I wonder if that is a connection.

What made your doctors and your friend's doctors say that you are no longer immune? Did they do a blood titer? If not, then I would suspect they are simply parroting what the pharmaceutical industry told them...the pharm industry is the only one profiting when 95% of the population get re-vaccinated for a disease to which they are already producing antibodies.

I have not had my son (almost two) immunized at all and I don't plan to. There are lots of other parents out there like me, too. I've heard too many horror stories and am not convinced that the pharmaceutical companies are acting in our children's best interests. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're not.

If I were you, I'd wait till ur kid is healthy before giving them vaccines. And do it slowly. It scares me that ur doc would play "catchup" with vaccines!! One at a time!! Good for you for postponing. The last thing you need is a negative vax reaction on top of everything!

Thanks for all the advice!

I really like this pediatrician. I am saying catch up on vaccines. But, atleast right now, I think the doctor and I are at an understanding about how the kids health is handled. He and I are a team. We talk and negotiate. It's kinda of funny really. Any way, yes, we will be doing the one at a time catch up. My bigger problem is that day care needs her to be up to date...that may be my biggest issue. I don't have any other options like staying home. I have to be at work. still not sure about these shots....but it has been put off a few more months for now.

I stopped vaxes when my ds2 was having problems. I have waited until all his health problems have been answers and we are still working on some answers.
I will say that there is a connection to Measles and the gut, this includes the measles vaccine. The gut connection is the main reason I have never had my ds2 vaxed for measles.
Some doctors do not recognize what good health is and what it isn't. I know what my ds2 was like and the doctors were not with him 24/7 to make that judgement call.

ditto my sons are now 23 and 25 and never been sick. They were born in the 80's too where they think alot of the autism cases were link to the vacines.

Gail

Hold off as long as you can....PLEASE. Use a religious exemption or a note from the Doctor, (If he is really willing to work well with you on the issue) for daycare. Never give an unhealthy child a vaccine, and never give a healthy child more than one at a time!

I have a 15 yr old son who has been gluten-free/casein free for 7 years. On 1-12-94 He was a normal healthy 18 month old. I took him to the clinic for his vaccinations like I thought all good parents do. They gave him his final Hib, first MMR, his final DTaP & final Polio vaccinations. Before the jabs, they first scolded me that I should have been in a few months earlier. I then held him down and allowed them to inject my baby with 8 diseases, Thimerosal, and a host of other preservatives.

Long story short...five days of explosive diarrhea. I seriously thought he was going to die. He went into a complete brain fog that he never came out of. He literately was poisoned before our eyes. Doctors blamed the reaction to a stomach flu that was going around. I know different. He was diagnosed autistic within the year. The best plan of treatment was healing his leaky gut. He is still autistic...but now high functioning instead of his previous low functioning.

Son #2 is NOT vaccinated. He 8 yrs old and his only illness has been the chicken Pox. (And an occasional cold). He got the Chicken Pox from a (pox)vaccinated child. Every vaccinated child in his class STILL got it. Son #2 is extremely bright, and extremely healthy. Of course he has also been brought up basically gluten-free/cf (until he started school) because I thought it better to start him out young in case I ever did need to change his diet.

Sorry to ramble. I'm very passionate about this subject. I saw it happen before my eyes. I had never heard of autism back then, I just knew that the vaccines changed my baby and no one (doctors) would listen. It wasn't until several years later did I start meeting others who had very similar stories.

If you're really feeling that unsure about the shots, you can get an exemption - either medical or religious/philosophical (depending on whether or not you meet the criteria for a medical exemption). If nothing else, you can get it just to allow you time to make up your mind or take the vaxes slowly. You can always get the vax whenever you want (or not at all), but you can't UNdo it.

I don't have my younger son vaccinated at all (and BTW, the daycares HAVE to accept the exemptions). At some point I *may* consider the DTaP, but for now we're holding off.

Lolabell, I'm so sorry what happened. Its so sad, and this really sickens me. My hope for you is that you get lots of support and hopefully some day they'll get to the bottom of this. Its my belief they have but the politics of food and medicine are shaped by the heavy hand of propaganda in television and media. T.V.news accept large contributions from billion dollar drug companies. There is very little free press in America today. Notice how many commercials for drugs while watching the world news.

Did you know that Eli Lilly for example mysteriously found its way into the Homeland Security Bill in Nov. 2002. Buried within a 450 page document was an outrageous clause that provides security to Eli Lily from thousands of potential lawsuits against them by families of autistic childres who believe that their kids condition is linked to thimerosal a mercury based preservative made by Eli Lilly that used to a common ingredient in vaccines.

How did this mystery clause find its way into the homeland security bill no one knows. Or no one is talking. It took weeks to uncover the provision because it was secretly slipped into the bill sometime over the weekend before it was passed. Eli Lilly contributed $1.6 million in the last election cycle. This type of deal making goes on in Washington every day and affects everyone.

I want to say more but I don't want to cause a stir. I said what I said to maybe provoke thought and please do research on this subject. Be careful of the source. Consider the power of the drug companies using fear tactics. And follow the money trail.

Gail

Gail

Lolabell, I am so sorry about your son.

Just today a friend whose family was over last weekend called to tell us that they think their younger daughter (who had not yet received the MMR) has the measles. We don't vax, as I mentioned, and I'm not super worried about it because I'd rather my son get it now than when he's a teen or an adult. If he starts getting sick I'll make sure he gets lots of supplements and rest. But anyway the friend also left a snarky message on my DH's voicemail at work saying, "I know [New Mama] has chosen not to give Henry the MMR because she believes the fallacy that it causes autism." (I only mentioned vaccines once two years ago because the wife is a doctor and I wanted to hear her opinion. We have never discussed it since, and I don't necessarily believe there is a direct link -- there may be other factors involved.)

I just hope someday the truth about vaccines becomes mainstream knowledge.

I've done a lot of research on this and I'm not vaccinating my son. There is a great book that is very balanced by Stephanie Cave called What your doctor may not tell you about vaccines. If you choose to go ahead with them it recommends spacing them out and taking immune boosting supplements before and after. As far as daycare needing them, the religious exemption should work.

Hope she feels better soon.

Chiming in here.

I vax-ed my 1st until his 4y.o. shots...

Then I started learning about the vaxes

Ds2 and DS3 are
not vaxed at all!

for me, the risks *do not* out weigh the benefits...

not to mention that they don't really work.

My main justification is that the Govmt has an agency to report to when there are negative reactions, and a fever/sore leg IS a negative reaction...

If a daycare recieves ANY govmt support such as child-care subsidies, or anything else like that then they HAVE to accept non-vaxed or behind schedule vax-ed children when they are accompanied by a religious or medical exemption...

I fully vaccinated my first through the 6 year shots. Mostly vaccinated my second through the 2-3 year shots and barely vaccinated my last through the 2 month shots. If I would have learned earlier I would not have had vaccinations either.

My oldest has started through some alternative testing called ART/ASYRA with LED treatments and has been found to have Hep B and Mumps come up on the vaccinations. Something with those 2 is causing her problems.

I will be testing my other two in September.

If you do decide to vaccinate wait until your child is two years and then give only one at a time. Dr. Russell Blaylock suggests to skip all live vaccines and to space any you do get at one every 6 months to give the system time to "get over" it.

just out of curiosity, have vaccines changed since people who are now adults recieved them? One would think they would have become "safer", or is it the same ol stuff that kids are getting now? thoughts?
and, can kids get into school without any vaccinations or real religious cause to not recieve them?
(I don't have children yet, but am curious for when I do)
thanks in advance =D

One that I know of has changed since we were kids. I don't know how old you are so I can't verify that. I do know that the old DTP is now DTaP.

As far as them being safer, nope. They may have had most of the thimerosal removed but they still have other harmful adjuvants which harm many children. They were made more potent than a lot of children can handle due to trying to get them to take in the 5% of the children that didn't respond to them.

The sheer quantity is another problem. Many problems have been linked to vaccines although I don't believe they are the whole problem, they are a part of it. SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, Autism Spectrum Disorders have all been linked to vaccines. Then you also have intolerances/sensitivities which I believe can be linked. I haven't researched any of that though, my baby is the one who led me to that conclusion.

A good site to look into if you are interested is www.nvic.org

thanks! honestly, i really had never heard any of this and I find it really interesting to think about for my future kids! I've heard of people not vacinating children but never have heard any real reason to think about that untill now!

There are many more vaccinations given now. At the time I was an infant and child the smallpox vaccine was given and probably diptheria, tetanus and polio vaccines as well. I contracted chicken pox when I was about 6 yo. MMR vaccine didn't exist, and I contracted both red measles and rubella in the same spring/summer, and now I have full immunity against both. I didn't receive the pertussis vaccine either, and have never contracted the disease, though my brother did.

In Alberta you don't need more than to say no to vaccines. I was a little worried about how the school and health nurses would react, but they were actually respectful and have marked down not to contact me with vaccination reminders (my eldest is fully vaccinated, my second partially vaccinated and my youngest not vaccinated at all.)

Mcihelle

OK. Both of our children got all the vaccinations (pre-chicken pox, and they both came down with chicken pox) and neither one had any negative reactions of any sort that we could determine. Just like the vast majority of kids.

richard

There are two MAJOR changes since we were kids.

One is the use of "multiple" vaccines, where there are 3 or more vaccines together in one shot. There has been NO long-term research on the safety of this.

The other, as mentioned above, is the sheer number of vaccines given. In the late 90's, the recommended vaccine schedule included 26 vaccines by the age of 18 months. Again, no long-term research exists proving the safety of this schedule. And, as far as I know, they have introduced more and more vaccines since the late 90's, so there may be even more required now.

Where do you get the "vast majority" of kids?

I do not intend to be argumentative here. It's just that all three of my kids reacted--but only one reaction got reported. The pediatrician at the time didn't know about the other two because the nurse who spoke to me on the phone didn't consider their reactions to be reactions. The pediatrician said later--years later--that they were indeed reactions.

Many of us don't get as far as the pediatrician when our children have reactions. We have to go through the nurse on the phone, and my understanding from one of them is that they consider their job on the phone to be that of making the load lighter on the pediatrician and warding off the "non-serious" cases.

I know MANY parents of autistic kids. Not all of them had discernable reactions, of course. But most of the ones I know had the same--and far worse--experiences as I did, where they were told that their child was fine, they were imagining things, there was no way int could be a reaction to the vaccine, etc. (Rather similar to what many of us here have been told about gluten, wouldn't you say?)

And I know one family who had video footage of their child, the day before the vaccine, and the day after. And the difference is truly shocking. In the first, the child appears normal, happy, and is both verbally and visually responsive to his parents. In the second, he appears SEVERELY autistic.

I agree that many children are not affected by the vaccines. But so many have been affected, and so many of us have been blown off by the medical community, that I can't help feeling dissed when you say that the vast majority is not affected. I really believe that there are many, many more affected than what's been reported by the physicians.

My parents never knew ANY other parents of severely autistic children.

I know 12--10 of them in Pittsburgh, most of those in our school district. And that's not counting the high-functioning/Asperger's Syndrome/PDD kids. I can't even count how many I know. And I don't go to any of the support groups, so it's not like I met them there--these are families I met at the doctor's office, at school, at playgrounds, at the synagogue, etc.

There's a family in my community who has similar video footage of their son's fourth birthday party, where he's perfectly normal, then one week later (after vaccination) he's clearly autistic.

It's scary that the medical community is in the dark about this. When I saw my daughter's abnormal reaction to vaccines during her baby years, our school nurse chewed me out about buying into society's fear frenzy, and she made me cry. I knew something wasn't right, and I thank God I went with my own maternal instincts and postponed vaccination until later, when we discovered she was a celiac; we didn't vaccinate until even later still when she was a healthy celiac.

Whenever I see our school nurse, I can't even look at her without thinking "you idiot"!