Let me start by saying that if you despise Michael Moore I understand but don't care to discuss that. Generally his movies are pretty one sided but this one was very different in my opinion. He even slammed Hilary Clinton for taking donations from pharma companies and he used to worship her. He's not to the left or right on the healthcare issue - as I understand his points anyway. We were in town for the 4th so we went to the movies and I felt sad and angry that the US is so screwed up regarding healthcare/insurance/drugs - and 37th in healthcare quality world wide - WHAAAAAAA?!

We have the best doctors in the world here but the best I've ever met were not even born in the US. A Neurologist that advised me about a condition he had, and that my deceased MIL and her brother had, told me he was ashamed of the doctors he met in his quest to save his life. He ended up in London for treatment - about 1/10th the cost of treatment here - but it was a different treatment. No on in the US told him about the treatment but he eventually found out that his US docs had been to a conference where this treatment was taught about. In the sick docs words 'why would they tell me I can save 90% of $150K by going to London? He says he was proud of his profession until he got sick and had to deal with greedy docs himself. Now he's simply ashamed that so many US docs are all about the money and not about helping people.

Okay so my question is - did anyone see the movie and if so, what did you think about it? I knew about a lot of what was shown but not all of it. I always thought Kasier was the devil and now I know it's true. I'm talking about the guy who started it so please don't tell me why you love Kasier insurance. I know too many people they screwed over to count - my own Grandmother being one of them. The movie isn't about Kaiser but just played some Nixon tapes approving the HMO idea in the early 70's.

I recommend every American see this movie - even the ones who really really hate Michael Moore. It will really make you think about a lot of things which I can't explain in a post. My husband and I are going to research where his international company has jobs where we could learn the language and will consider trying to move closer to retirement age - if of course we can stay in the chosen country once he retires. We'd actually thought about this before but now it's more serious. I'm actually scared to live out the latter part of my life in the US. Oh and if you do go to the movie make sure to look closely at the scroll of diseases which are conditions you'll be automatically rejected for insurance in the US. Make sure and check the 'C' section.

I love America (so please don't tell me I don't) but you don't have to love everything about a place or person or anything. We are so screwed up on this issue and I just don't think the problems are fixable at this point - and certainly not by the time I'm in my sunset years. More and more people are retiring out of the states and now I totally understand why. Most of them would rather stay put but also want to enjoy their retirement and not worry if they can buy meds/pay for medical care. I mean we save and we invest and in the end, one big bill from a medical emergency/illness could ruin us financially. Blue Cross already tried to drop me two months after I was diagnosed with something that's not supposed to be mentioned in this thread.

I am going to see the movie tonight. Can't wait!

Why would anyone think you don't love this country? You are exercising your first amendment right of free speech. Humans are not infallable. Therefore, the USA is not infallable. We have serious issues to deal with - one of them being health care.

Always be weary of the people who claim our country to be the greatest yet have never stepped foot outside of it to actually compare it to others. LOL

I haven't seen it but hope to soon! You bring up excellent points, I get the idea you love the U.S. very much!

My son went to see the movie and insisted that my husband and I go. I saw "Fahrenheit 911" and was very impressed with it. "Sicko" was equally good. Although Moore is sometimes a little farther left than I, he really knows how to expose the issues. He is sometimes criticized for some of his data, but data from one study to the next can be very different. It's obvious, too, that the other side produces its own set of data.

As a teacher, I see kids who need medical, (especially dental) treatment, but they don't receive it because their parents' insurance policies don't cover the needed procedures. I notice this more with the working poor than the ones whose families have been on public assistance all along. Sometimes I think about all of the benefits that good medical care has provided me, and I feel such sadness for people who have similar problems that have not been addressed. I have foot problems and wear customized orthotics. Without them, I would have terrible foot pain, which would definitely affect my employment. I also have severe seasonal allergies which lead to sinus problems if untreated. On top of that, I've been on medications for depression for years. Without these, I would be terribly depressed.

As for Kaiser, I used to be an early intervention specialist and worked with small children with disabilities. One of the kids was this beautiful little twin with cerebral palsy. I can't remember the exact details, but the Kaiser doctor had not arrived to deliver the baby so they had the medical staff delay the birth until their doctor could arrive. Problems developed in the meantime, and the sweet little girl sustained brain damage.

There will always be the people who believe that everything in America is good, politicians are honest (as long as they profess a certain type of religious faith), our international policies are always motivated by a higher good, etc. While I love my country, I believe that the United States is not infallibe and that in recent years we have strayed far from the values made us the greatest nation on earth. I hope that some day we can get back to those values and be respected again around the world.

I hope to see it soon. Don't retire to here (Canada) as our health care is getting worse by the day. I actually would love to retire to Cuba.

I am looking forward to seeing that movie! I understand your fears of talking bad about of the US, many people take the "if your not in agreement with everything we do, your against all we do!" stance. I agree i love america, but there are so many ways we need to improve it!

I had a problem with healthcare limiting my choices. Previously, I was switching job, and because I was ill (not one seemed to be able to figure out what was wrong with me), I needed to keep Insurance. I applied for indvidual coverage, and was denied... due to my weight. You know Health insurance companies will insure smokers, but will not insure overweight people!? this forced me to stay on Cobra for quite a while. I am curently looking for a job... I found the perfect one... it dosen't have a goup health insurance plan, only a monthly stipend to cover costs. I had to give up my DREAM job, all beacuse of Celiac and my weight.

I have been shuttled around to doctors, and they all (except my GP) want to get you in out and on some drugs. Sad Sad state of a once well respected profession.

Well Rusla - after you see this movie, you really will want to retire in Cuba.

Let my start off by saying I do not think US govt. can do a good job with healthcare - I do not trust them with my health - case in point is US govt. military hospitals and especially how a veterans hospital misdiagnosed my husband and disrespected him...anyway I think that we are going to see a great change in our healthcare system as many people are rising up in protest.

Part of the movie you described I don't understand is how this person got treatment in UK and wasn't a UK citizen? I heard that UK health system is like Canada's....so I am very confused now.


I also feel that the working poor who cannot afford insurance are in trouble. Only problem is I can't afford higher taxes to help them as it'll make me then live out of my car. How do we resolve all this to everyone's benefit?

Sorry to confuse you - the neurologist I spoke of paid cash for his London treatment and is not in the movie at all. I was just making the point that doctors here will literally let you die if you can't afford treatment before telling you there is alternative treatments that are much cheaper out of the US. And not just in Mexico. This was not a point made in the movie either - just my personal observation and the doctor who lived it's truth.

I agree that the US gov't can't run a healthcare program and that's why I'm not planning on living here forever. If the US citizens had a healthy lifestyle - and let's face it most of them do not - there might be an answer to this horrific problem. If Brittian had hoards of obese people coming in for treatment, they probably could not afford to offer the care they do now. The average American wants to eat junk, not exercise and take a pill for everything. This is very unlike most of the rest of the developed world. I'm not trying to offend anyone but when in Europe on vacation we can almost always tell who is American by their size. True the normal or thin Americans don't stand out but if you see someone who's obese in Rome, London or Paris - 99 times out of 100 they are American. I proved my point more often that I was comfortable with so I stopped playing the game. It really made me sad to see how unhealthy Americans are as a whole. I never thought about it until I went to Europe and saw it first hand. It's really shameful to me. How many people are dying from hunger all over the world and we're (not me mind you) over here supersizing everything.

Before I make an opinion (private opinion) on this I'd need to know:

credentials of doctors offering the alternative treatment in other countries

locations of those other countries

types of alternative treatments and the ailments they are for

peer review of the alternative treatments (both in that country and in USA teaching hospitals)

mortality rates of those taking those out of country alternative treatments vs. standard treatents in USA

cost of living/income of USA vs. those other countries

standard of living/income of USA vs. those other countries



The information provided doesn't provide this documentation so it's premature to say "yea" or "nay" to the idea of moving out of this country due to healthcare issues.

This is not about people who get diseases naturally:
Agreed that Americans need to take better care of themselves - but from what I see they continue to keep their bad habits (overeating, smoking, suntan booths, etc.) and then look for help when they are unhealthy & have a health problem and then need a lot of medical attention and need more than one specialist -- then it's expensive. So it could be said that if you take the steps to ensure that you are in good health all your life (no smoking, no tanning booths, no bad diets, no extreme sports, etc.) you can help prevent health care expenses from spiraling out of control. Avoiding bad habits won't stop all health ailments but it'll help. Additionally, people who these bad habits don't want to hear about how they are hurting themselves: I have a sister in law who does not believe that smoking causes lung cancer.....and continues to smoke.

I also believe, however that people in these other countries which have alternative treatments smoke and overeat as well. Especially in a developed country. Maybe it's not to the point that USA citizens do it.

This is so true! I was in Europe last fall for 15 weeks, and we could play spot the tourist by the end! You can tell Americans because of their size, their loudness, their jeans, their sweatshirts, and their shoes In fact, people always assumed I was German or English because I was thin/talked quietly/dressed well. However, I think if we did change the philosophy of healthcare to preventative instead of treatment oriented, people would be more likely to be thinner. And if we could through out most of the processed crap that the major companies pass as food, we'd be all set.

My family is mostly in England/UK. Their socialized health system is FAR from perfect. When my grandpa was sick with cancer and multiple strokes, the wait times were horrendous. I don't think socialized medicine is the answer, but we should look at the reasons it's so expensive, and fix those.

Better government support for drug research, and then issue drugs without patents.
Better scholorships for medical schools/nursing schools, etc.
more limitations on suing for medical damages. (Dr's will make mistakes. they can be held to very high standards, but suing them for hundreds of millions when they make a mistake does no good for our society.)
etc, etc.

The fact is, Medicine is expensive. Someone has to pay for it.

Of course, if were weren't spending Hundreds of Billions in Iraq, we could pay for a lot of health care here.

I look forward to seeing the movie, but I don't believe socialized medicine is the answer.
Geoff

Amen to that.

Agreed.
It's free at the point of entry, but you (seriously) might die waiting to see that specialist.
If you don't like the alotted doc you finally get to see - too bad
If I had the money I would pay for private healthcare.

Many procedures in the UK (e.g heart bypass, hip replacements) can be refused on the grounds of smoking/obesity.

It is exactly the same here in Canada--socialized health care. It's a wonderful, heartwarming idea in principle, universal care for all citizens, but in reality it just no longer works. There is far too much expensive technology now, too many aging baby-boomers, too many obese/stressed out/smoking Canadians, for the system to hold up like it did, very efficiently, fifty years ago when universal health care became mandated here. Like in the UK, we have long wait times for surgeries (Michael Moore was incorrect in his movie on this one), and a critical shortage of family doctors. The thought of two-tier health care frightened me a few years ago, but then I started teaching at the French Embassy and found out from discussing it with the diplomats how this can really work. The French health care system is likely the best in the world. Those who can afford to go to a private hospital, do so. Those who can't, go to a public hospital. Doctors and specialists must do time in both places. No wait times, great quality of care....It's a system worth carefully looking at.

Ok,

So I saw the movie last night. Moore focused most of the movie on people who had normal jobs (with health care) and suddenly lost everything due to sever illness. He makes Kaiser Permanente look like Lucipher (which they are). He focuses on the non-published atrocities of the US system (raising premiums so sick can't afford them, denying coverage due to experimental treatments or denying coverage due to pre-exisitng medical conditions).

He then focuses on the Canadian, English and French health care systems. He mentions that elective surgeries are often a long wait (though he made no mention of cardio thorasic or brain surgeries).

He really marvels at the French system (and so do I) and how they beleive in preventive medicine and better lifestyles than Americans (even though they smoke more and eat fatty foods too).

Lastly, he looks at the history of the US government and how it and health care providers have used propaganda against "socialized medicine" for years (scary some of the stuff they came up with).

He ends the show taking 9/11 workers who had respiratory problems from working on ground zero (that had been denied health care subsequent to 9/11) and took them to Cuba where they were treated quickly and freely (as well as a HUGE DISCOUNT on prescriptions).


All in all, a good flic. However, you may need a hankie for some parts of the movie. The story about the deaths of a father and a daughter will tug at your heart strings (Kaiser denied them coverage and rhey died).

Alot of the Canadian health care system needs improvement, but alot of it is also hit or miss.

When my mom was hospitalized with diverticulitis last fall, she got excellent care. She was discharged (after the initial attack had subsided), had the colonoscopy the following week, showed she needed surgery, and was booked and had it two weeks later. I firmly believe it has alot to do with where you live in Canada and the availability of medical care in the particular area you live in......

Karen

I can't wait to see this movie. From what I know, healthcare is the US is truly a sad state of affairs. I agree that socialized Canadian healthcare is far from perfect, but it is NOT that bad for the majority of people. It really depends on where you live. If I lived in the US, I'd be dead right now. I have had a chronic serious health condition since age two, I would never get insurance of any kind, or without paying through the roof. As a student, I could not afford that. Instead, in Canada, I know I can walk into any walk in clinic for medical care and not pay a cent, go to a local hospital if I am injured and not have any direct costs, and have my eyes examined for diabetic retinopathy (leads to blindness if untreated) for free. I am also able to see a Registered Dietitian for free. Anyone who needs a medically prescribed diet can. I did not have to pay for my Celiac testing. I was Dx'd based on that, since EMA, Anti-Gliadin, and TtG (expensive) tests were used. I can claim gluten-free food on my taxes. Sure, I might have to pay for some minor things out of my own pocket, and I used to think this as unfair. However, I now realize just how lucky I am to be Canadian. My province pays for 100% of my diabetes supplies (insulin pump supplies alone are $350/mth) after I pay a small deductible once annually (3% of my income). I shudder to think of those with Type 1 diabetes who end up dead and/or in comas because they literally couldn't afford to live, and the US government doesn't care. Even for those without Rx coverage in their province, drug costs are still a fraction of the US. I see a specialist for free (Endo), and my GI referral for my biopsy (my choice) was rather quick. We have a doctor shortage, true, that is because many doctors move to the US to make more money. For profit is the name of the game in the US. We are expanding medical school seats and offering tuition reimbursement for those who will stay and work in their home province.

I agree that the French system is best, and that wait times here are well, not always so great. But at least we have the ability to get some healthcare in the first place.

The main reason our system is failing is because Canadians are also facing the same problems as the US (obesity, poor diets, smoking), although to a slightly lesser extent. The longer people fail to accept responsibility for their own choices and their health, the worse it will be for all of us who have genetic/non-preventable illnesses, and the population at large. I strongly think that those who *choose* to smoke, eat a poor diet, not exercise, etc. (and not even consider changing) should pay for all of their own healthcare. That way they can do whatever they want, and it doesn't burden the system. The reason why Canada does not have a national drug program yet is because the government rightfully refuses to pay for treating preventable illnesses, like Type 2 diabetes. Unfortunately due to this, those who have non-preventable conditions must suffer in the meantime.

I agree that if the UK had the same obesity rates as the US, the system would collapse. As obesity and related conditions like some forms of cancer, joint issues, heart disease, and Type 2 diabetes grows here, so do our wait times.


Ooops...sorry removed something I added that was supposed to be in another post...

I saw Sicko on July 5. I cried during the part about France. If I had the type of support the Frenchwomen described when my children were little and I was desperately ill without knowing the cause, it would have made such a difference in my life! It really made me realize how unsupportive the USA is of families and children despite the rhetoric.

What the movie says about the profit motive in health care creating an incentive to unjustly deny care is absolutely true. I worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield for two years. I was appalled to hear management proudly discussing their techniques for getting their claims denial rates up. They were actually proud of this, not ashamed! They also had different nurse case managers depending on who was calling. If the caller was a corporate bigwig who was involved in choosing the health insurance provider for the next cycle, their calls went to nurses who were instructed to approve claims. If it was an unimportant normal worker who was calling about a precertification or an existing claim, their call was routed to the OTHER case managers, who were instructed to deny claims wenever possible. This was so the executives in the companies insured by Blue Cross would have a positive experience with claims and ignore or discount any complaints their employees might make. They never realized their claims experience was different from that of their employees. When I left Blue Cross I was offered 1 months salary if I agreed to sign a document to never divulge any of this. I refused to sign, did not take the money, and that is why I feel free to tell the truth about them.

I think Michael Moore is right, that we need Universal Health Care. It is not perfect. But our current system is awful. There is a massive infrastructure to support our adversarial claims system. We waste so much energy and money on claims tracking systems, billing clerks, case review nurses, and expensive computers to support it all. That money could much better be used in helping patients and furthering medical research.

"What the movie says about the profit motive in health care creating an incentive to unjustly deny care is absolutely true. I worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield for two years. I was appalled to hear management proudly discussing their techniques for getting their claims denial rates up. They were actually proud of this, not ashamed!"

This is the reason why it will be a cold day in hell before the US has universal health care.

There is money to be made off of people dying and not getting coverage.

Everyone should see this movie. The first 30 minutes or so are dedicated to the couple that had good jobs, raised their kids, still had benefits and eventually lost all their benefits because of heart attacks and cancer. The company drove their premiums up, drove their deductibles up and they were prescribed so much medication to the point where the couple lost their savings retirement.

This isn't politics, its a wake-up call. Michael Moore doesn't have many friends on the right side of the political aisle, but even they should see this movie.

I think that the whole of the corporate structure is corrupt. You work for a company for over 30 years contributing to the corporate billions. You retire with a pension. The company declares bankruptcy and terminates your pension and health coverage (promised for life), and notified by a simple form letter and did not have the nerve to have a signature at the bottom...and the corporate executives walk away with a 33 million dollar "golden parachute". And they continue to count their quarterly profits in the billions. Now that sucks!

Warning: logic being applied - what I am about to say isn't for sake of an argument but it is based on economic principles. I am trying to put this simply for all to understand. Keep in mind I too may not necessarily agree with our system (USA) but I can explain it.

As someone who has been in insurance business all my adult life and understand rate making, etc. I can only say that the health insurance companies are run by stockholders (people like you and me who own stock in a company)...anyway, the state of insurance where they operate allows them to rule on what is covered & pre-existing conditions. It must be approved by the State's Dept.of Insurance first. So that's really who is to blame.
However, if the insurance company doesn't make a profit for the company and for the stockholders they will go out of business.
If the insurance company does not have a "reserve" of money to pay claims the state insurance Dept. will close them down.
This is due to our system of capitalism and insurance is a business. With the exception of certain types of insurance, most insurance is optional. Types of insurance that are not optional: workers' compensation, auto liability and flood insurance.



Dismantling our health insurance system to replace it with socialized medicine will put a lot of people out of work. I don't know how they'll be able to do this without putting our economy in a recession. I am just looking at the problem logically.

(a pre-existing condition rule is applied to discourage people who are suddenly sick and want coverage immediately. That's like insuring a building while it is burning. It's a sure loss for the insurance company. So the state allows this rule so that insurers are not taking on sure losses - no one would bet on a losing team...that's what it's like for insurance companies to write new policies on people with pre-existing conditions. Have I had that happen to me? You bet! Years ago when you had health insurance thru your employer and you changed jobs every health problem then was a pre-existing condition. Only recently the state relaxed the rules wherein in some states, if you've had health insurance for 60 days before taking out new policy you do not have to suffer a pre-existing condition rule.)

I have to agree that we must find another way to help each other; however, I don't have trust and confidence in my fellow man(woman). Everyone is out for themselves.

As a point of interest I have to say that the Amish do not have health insurance and when one of them gets sick their community pays the medical bills. That is true socialism. But this system also has it's downside in that like the other poster said, the healthy will then be paying for those who deliberately ruin their health. Where's the fairness in that? I'd rather take out my own insurance and carry my own weight. Let me deduct my premium on my tax return to offset my insurance expenses and any uninsured medical bills. They should bring down the deduction threshold so that all Americans can do it, not just those who make enough money or own property so that they can claim deductions. I think this will bring some equity to us all.

Just me musing.....

I haven't gotten to see Sicko yet, but I will. I was never a big fan of Michael Moore's, but I applaud his efforts to bring this subject onto the big screen. Our nation MUST do something about our healthcare.I for one would not mind being a federal employee again..I used to work at the VA for 2 years when my kids were young. But what many private insured Americans don't get is that nationalizing healthcare will mean LESS for them as it will now be SOMETHING for those who don't have. Many of them get a deer in headlight look when I make that comment! Perhaps the French system(I need to read more about that) would be the best. And that doctors working both sides of the streets so to speak definitely makes it more egalitarian! From my Canadian patients I do understand there is a wait for certain services and procedures, just as it was 20 years ago at the VA. So we must pray for quality political leadership to guide us through this maze....I won't hold my breath. Neither side has shown much intestinal fortitude for this fight. AND !! There's more! Jan 1,2008 may signal the biggest crunch in US medical history. That is when there is a 10% cut to doctors from Medicare starts...they've put it off in Congress for the last 3 or 4 years . It is slated to decrease roughly 5% per year after that for 7 years......to average 40% total cut from now by then ! How many of you can take a 40% cut in income and still want to do that job??Since private insurance PPO's,etc tie their rates to Medicare, they will reap a HUGE non-earned profit and many, many docs will just stop practice. Importing doctors may not be so easy in the future,too.
SO if any of you have any great ideas, feel free to add it on. I hope to get my face in front of a Senator before they break for the holidays.....all said and done, universal healthcare will make my life better.

This decrease in benefits for Medicare is scary....doctors will want to refuse to take on new elderly patients and those on disability and the dependents of those on Medicare would suffer too, like children of people on disability. This just further proves that the government should not be in the business of health care.

I am not against importing doctors as it was a doctor from India who diagnosed my husband properly. Perhaps if American doctors didn't have their finger up their sweet potato for decades we'd see improvement on their side. Perhaps Medicare, with this benefit cut, is only now getting around to paying American doctors what they are really worth


But all seriousness, the health industry is going to see further tough times.
I also see our healthcare problem as a result of people not making enough money to either buy health insurance or to pay the medical bills off -- although we are told that the economy is robust, it is not for the "everyman."

I heard a survey just a couple of months ago wherein people said that they felt that they were not doing as well as even their parents did when their parents were their age. This is true.

For example, in the late+ 1940's thereabout, and oldsters please correct me if my info is wrong -- many people didn't have 30-year mortgages on their homes --- many had only a 10-year mortgage.
And you were able to pay it off and have some money for retirement, pay for health insurance / medical bills, afford a modest vacation home, families would pool their money together to put Grandma in a nursing home - no Medicaid then and no social security system --- and you'd be able to put kids through college (or the college kid used to work their way through college - this occurred at least up until the early 1970's before college tuitions skyrocketed).
What I am saying is that during those days, and usually, a family had only one income (husband) - they did all these things.
Ok, there were groups of men/women who didn't have it like this, my in-laws for example; but a good number of middle-class people did live like this.
We keep looking at the symptoms of this problem (i.e., expensive health care, expensive insurance, expensive to buy a car/home/vacation/education) when we should be seeing that the problem could be economic. Additionally taxes have gone up. Many years ago there was no federal or state income tax nor sales taxes...and these taxes keep going up for the middle class - so more of your money is being taken away and you're left with less to spend. I'd like to know what percentage property tax was back then as compared to now....


So what I am basically opining is that, in my opinion as a person who has worked consistently for the past 33 years, is that personal income hasn't kept up with our standard of living.

I would really think twice, no one hundred times, about planning to retire in Cuba. It is a communist country. You, and everyone else, might also want to remember that when watching a movie that shows something in communist Cuba. Do you really think that Castro would allow you to see what is really happening in his country? There have been numerous reports/shows/ pictures of real Cuban hospitals. I would not send my dog to any of them. They lack basic supplies. Remember that when Castro had health problems, he flew to Spain. He didn't get health care in his own country.

Keep in mind Michael Moore is a propagandist.

When I think about health coverage in Canada, I remember the time my father had eye surgery in Baltimore at the Wilmer Eye Institute. There was someone else having the same surgery. They were paying for it out of pocket. They lived in Canada and the man had required surgery on both eyes. He waited so long that when they did the surgery on the first eye, he was blind. He wasn't going to wait almost another year for surgery in Canada for the second eye. And this wait was after he was blind in one eye.

I have similar stories about health care in England. My BIL was stationed there and the stories from their neighbors are just terrible.

In the US, we may not have the best coverage for everyone. But the last thing I would want would be public health care.

Yep, there are down sides with universal health care, for sure. But Doll, I can't believe you Manitobans get ALL of your diabetes supplies paid for??! This is incredible...wow, life is totally different here in Ontario, where health care is the worst in the country. I hear things are also not good just across the river in Quebec, but here we have NO gps, no coverage of ANY medical supplies (my husband has decent work insurance that does pick up 80% of my insulin, test strips, etc....thank gawd), and nine-month waiting lists for MRIs and non-emergency cardiac surgeries. My girlfriend is in Vancouver, where she has been without a family doctor since her old one retired four years ago. She tells me that B.C. has a broken system as well. So I guess it really does make a difference which province you're in, since our provincial governments are given a lot of clout in this field. Manitoba, huh? It's right next door...not a huge geographic move for us....

Let me first say I don't trust the government or HMOs with my family's health care. It seems strange to me that we have a free market system regarding insurance companies, but they do not really compete with each other. Maybe if employees could have a greater choice in who insures them it would inspire a more competitive relationship between insurance companies. Maybe that would lower rates, deductibles, etc. It would also help if health insurance companies could bargain with the drug companies. Last summer I volunteered at the VA pharmacy and I learned that the federal government makes deals with drug companies that offer the lower prices. For example, veterans could not get Viagra paid for but instead they got the newer drug...the name has slipped my mind. My idea is that maybe the government could do their job my making sure that there is no conspiring amongst insurance companies, and maybe if there was a system built around competition costs would go down.

I am not against importing medical doctors, but it will be more difficult in the future due to increased security clearance with recent events in the UK. Maybe the doctors Debmidge has seen aren't worth the discount prices physicians are paid, but the bulk of primary care (FP's, IM's,Ped's) work hard and long hours for their reimbursement. The specialists are the ones who reap 5-10 times payment for the same amount of face time that the generalist receives. General Internists are a dying breed and we aren't being replaced. There is something else wrong with the system when med students and residents leap to the high paying subspecialities and pass on the art of taking care of patients,and doing so in a long term relationship. I think we can thank the corporate structure for changing insurance companies on the employees year after year....further lessening the bond between patient and doctor. There are no easy solutions here, but being paid in a private practice of 20+ years less than a starting pharmacist in a chain drug store will not attract new primary care doctors.

Manitoba is one of the "have provinces" for Pharmacare. Once you pay 3% of your income annually, all supplies are covered, including insulin pump supplies. Sask. does not have great coverage, but it is better than Ontario. Pump supplies for children are now covered here. I am only a student here, so I'm covered under MB. It really does depend on where you live for coverage. Yukon, NWT, and Nunavut all have 100% coverage, AND cover insulin pumps (MB only pays for the supplies).

There have been attempts to get a national drug plan, so everyone gets coverage similar to what MB has. However, I wasn't kidding when I said that the people who abuse their health are holding it back. I personally have been at meetings where gov't officials say that "our focus is diabetes prevention (Type 2, the kind caused by obesity), not treatment".

The problem with this is that the 10% of diabetics who have Type 1 diabetes (genetic autoimmune form) need insulin and supplies to *live*, and their form of diabetes is not preventable. Thus, the people with genetic and/or non-preventable forms of diseases suffer because of the unhealthy masses. The government's new focus is "healthy living" campaigns, which I am sure you have seen in the media. That does nothing for those like me, who will still have a life threatening health condition that has nothing to do with lifestyle and cannot be prevented. Basically, our nation's bad habits are breaking the system.

But for now, MB is holding up, and our coverage is fairly good. Wait times for an Endo are not the best, but they are not the worst either. Winnipeg has a "private" MRI machine that seemed to fly under the radar...the gov't supposedly pays to send people to this private MRI clinic when the hospitals are booked, but I am pretty sure you can pay yourself to get faster treatment.....

Yes, I had the opportunity to get an MRI done privately last year if I travelled to Gatineau and paid $800.00. It was no emergency, so I waited the seven months here.

I saw the movie and I thought it was a bunch of propoganda. Yes, there were very sad stories in it. but go anywhere, and you will find hundreds of very sad stories. The same way farenheight 911 had some truth to it, but alot of it was "spun", i thought alot of this was spun. I have relatives in canada who are on waiting lists for surgery, as some people on this board are canadian, they will tell you everything is far from perfect up there. I thought it was very sad but also exaggerated.

I don't pretend to have a solution and I know that Moore salnts everything toward his view. He admits that.

A fair part of our money used for medical reasons is wasted on insurance companies and bureaucracy. I think it's bad for health care. As somebody mentioned in an earlier message, it's a HUGE business and dismantling it might cost jobs, but some of those jobs would go elsewhere. That said, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the government running things, either. I'm not sure what the answer is.

A tale from my family. I have a cousin who went to Europe a number of years ago because he could make a living there playing jazz drums (he couldn't here in the U.S. because of the progressive style he plays). Once there, a world-renowned cardiologist in Paris finally diagnosed problems he had been having as a heart condition that really has no cure other than medications, monitoring, and, eventually, a transplant. He's steadily going downhill toward transplant or death. A few years ago he wanted to return to the U.S. to live but can't because he can't get insurance here and doesn't make enough to pay for his treatment out of pocket. In France, even though he's a U.S. citizen, he's basically taken care of.

richard

I hope a lot of people see "Sicko" and leave the US. That way there will be less strain on the US system and care will improve for me.

The health insurance companies do have bargains with the drug companies: it's called "formulary" and this will hurt celiacs. How? if you definitely want a brand name prescription because you know it's gluten free and you're too sick to go calling every generic company to find out if their formula is gluten free, you might not be able to get the brand name or the particular brand name you desire because it's not on their "formulary list." Now this didn't affect us prior to celiac but now it's a nightmare. That's why the veterans could not get Viagra as it was not on the formulary, but Levitra was. That means that the VA's program has a deal with the manufacturers of Levitra but not Viagra. Now let's pretend that only Viagra is gluten-free - hence the problem for celiacs with a formulary. You do not want the healthcare insurance or provider in cahoots with the drug manufacturer for this very reason. Also, these formularies change from year to year and some drugs are removed and some are added. In my workplace's formulary we've had some gluten-free drugs removed and the "PIA" it is to have to call the pharmacist or generic to find out if a reasonable substitute is gluten-free is a nightmare.

Also, I have a feeling that when an health/precription insurance company has a formulary they keep track of how many of what drugs are being used and when they renew the insurance policy for the employer they remove the drugs that are being used the most. I said that to the woman at the insurance company and she replied "That would be immoral!" I said "Yep, that describes the insurance company." (Even though I am in the business I do not get a discount or any special treatment and I am just as skeptical as you guys are.)

I don't want my insurance/prescription plan in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies for this very reason. We will have better competition if/when FDA approves more new drugs, but they have had those recent scares with drugs that had to be taken off market, so FDA isn't so quick now to approve just anything.


I'd to know more about France's healthcare; how it operates etc. As it stands now, I am not interested in Universal healthcare run by US govt as they failed us in the Veteran's Administration (personal experience) and I do not want to go though this again. See my info below about the VA & they misdiagnosed my husband, and treated him cruelly and refused to test him further. If this is the mentality of universal govt care then we are in trouble. Man I hated going to the DMV or unemployment because they were so lazy, rude, insolent and impudent to us "customers" and I am told that I have to deal with this type of person for my healthcare? Are we going mad?

This just shows how desperate some of us are to get away from the system we're in now. We change it and accept just anything in its place.

I'll say it again, I want this: my own privately chosen healthcare plan with prescription, eyeglass, dental, short & long term disability and use my own income to pay the premium but be able to deduct from my state and federal taxes *from the first dollar* all costs and premiums associated with my medically necessary healthcare. Meaning healthcare that isn't medically necessary like boob implants or face lift can't be deducted from *first dollar* - that uses the old way of however it's deducted, if it's an allowable deducted procedure at all (I don't know).

Also, additional guidelines for this type of allowable *first dollar* would be tied into annual income with number of dependents or number of adults. For instance: single person making under $50,000 can do the *first dollar* deduction. Family of 4 can make no more than $100,000 and qualify. Or something like this - maybe the income amount has to be regional as $50,000 a year in New York City area wouldn't go too far to support a single person & I don't mean that the night life is expensive just the cost of regular living is. The income limit should be tied into the cost of living in your area and there should be let's say 5 different levels. Level "A" is for cities where $50,000 does't go far like NYC, LA, San Fran, Chicago, etc. Level "B" is for the next step --- and these levels are shown on the map and you report your deductions based on where you live. Unfortunately, the wealthy cannot participate but they are probably not really worrying about healthcare costs to begin with. This would basically be relief in nature for working families/working poor/young & single/etc. to avert a healthcare crisis and to keep the uninsured and underinsured from clogging the emergency rooms.

*I Just want to clarify one thing: I believe medical expenses and premiums are tax deductible however the people who are hurting financially from high costs are those who do not make enough money or own property and cannot itemize their deductions. My idea is for those people only. As Charitable Relief. Not as a field-day for the wealthy who don't have to worry about deciding between paying a health insurance premium and buying their next yacht. Not that the wealthy or yachts are bad...no.no.no. just want to stress that it's the average citizen who needs this relief and needs it now.*


Ok, I'll also repeat myself. Today's income has not kept pace in comparision to 40+ years of inflation and recession. Some of us are not doing as well as our parents, who had less education than we do. This is no reflection on older people or on younger people - it's the economy. But that's a different topic but it does affect the buying power of those who cannot afford health care.

9:22 Pm on the East Coast.
Larry King interviewing Michael Moore on CNN
West Coast you might catch it.
It's almost over..just turned it on.
Judy

I think the major point here is that everyone in Canada (or country X) GETS medical care. Of course there will be a wait time for non-emergent/urgent cases. Those who can afford to not wait can fly done to the Mayo Clinic and pay for their surgery the next day. The average citizen and poor person will still get care, just a bit later.

People with who need heart surgery etc. get it right away. In the US, if you have heart disease and have no insurance, you may (will) die. If you have Type 1 diabetes and can't afford regular insulin injections, you die, or end up with kidney failure at age 20. Laser treatments and surgery to save your sight are not covered if you cannot get or afford insurance. They are in Canada.

France has a good set up, but I doubt the US will ever have any kind of even partially socialized healthcare system....they're spending (wasting) billions of dollars on a futile "War on Terror"....

I'm quite selfish in my reason to not want socialized medicine: socialized medicine will bring everyone towards the average, but half of us have above average care, so our medical care will get worse. I've got good insurance, my doctors have been good (and the two I had that weren't, I fired - something you can't do in socialized medicine so easily, if at all), and my health care has been quite reasonable given it's complicated-ness.

What I think would help more is some accountability on the part of the average person for their health. Don't exercise regularly? Don't eat pretty darn well? Don't keep your stress levels manageable? Don't have a support system? Don't help your doctor(s) manage your health? Then it's kinda your own fault. (And, yes, I tell myself it's my own darn fault when I don't do these things and I'm not feeling well too, because it is.)

Although I can understand the point of view regarding people not taking proper care of themselves, one must also remember all the diseases are we are pre-disposed to, celiac being a perfect example. Taking good care of yourself does squat when you have family genes that give you a disease anyway (i.e. breast cancer, diabetes, heart failure, etc.).......

Karen

one and a half of the three examples you use are not "given" to you by genetics. your genetics may predispose you to them, but they are not by any means a given if you have the genes - just as celiac isn't. taking care of yourself can indeed help keep you from developing those conditions. sure, there are purely genetic conditions - cystic fibrosis, for instance - that are a 'given' that will always require medical care. but the extent of the care required for those with conditions that cannot be prevented can be reduced with good health practices.

does it prevent it for everyone? not at all. and there's no reason to assume that we would need zero medical care if we took care of ourselves. but we would need significantly less, and that care would be less expensive.

I agree with you 100 percent. There is a lack of accountability with many out there! And, i'm selfish, i like my good health insurance too. I'm sure we'll both get yelled at now for saying this though.

I'm with you on this. Type 1 diabetes (the genetic autoimmune kind that can't be prevented by any known means) is only 5-10% of diabetics. 90-95% (!) of diabetes cases are Type 2 diabetes, the kind that is usually caused by being overweight/obese, eating a poor diet, and not exercising. Wipe out Type 2 diabetes, and diabetes will once again become an "uncommon" disease like it was in the 1950's when mainly only Type 1 diabetes existed (0.5% of the population). Please no one list "diabetes" without saying what type. It's very insulting to the thin people like me with a genetic non-preventable form of diabetes to be linked in with a person who ate McD's for years, never exercised, and now has Type 2 diabetes.

There are people with genes for breast cancer, but in many cases, breast cancer is linked to obesity (due to an excess of insulin levels and hormones in the blood).

Many (but not all of course) cases of heart disease are linked to lifestyle, obesity, etc.

I think what you are trying to say is that those with unpreventable health conditions take up a very small portion of medical costs overall. I agree with this. It is the people who abuse their health that destroy the system and would expect to have care.

My fear with Universal healthcare in US would be:

1) excessive taxes like in those countries with socialized medicine - take note of their tax percentage..Is there any reason why celebrities/musicians/actors from those countries become residents/citizens of US?

2) the system will be clogged with cases they can't get to

3) the bureaucrats will ruin it with rules and HMO type regulations - I don't think any of you liked the HMO regulations (especially the "referrals")

4) it'll be run like the Dept. of Motor Vehicles with people who know that they'll make their income without any effort or worse yet have no care for the person who needs help - just slap a form at them and argue with them if they can't fill it out (think DMV, unemployment office, any other govt. office where you need their help)

5) the excessive taxes needed to hold up a program like this will make me a pauper and I'll have to live out of my car - if I can afford one.

6) it will not attract the best and the brightest as the program's funds will be doled out miserly on the medical personnel, but the administrators and politicians who head it will be in "gravy."

7) it'll have a great potential for "graft" and "political buddy systems" getting the contracts for the healthcare - whether at hospital, pharmaceutical, diagnostic (MRI's etc.) or treatment level.

8) healthcare will actually get worse than what we have now (through see items 3-7 above)

9) the dismantling of our current healthcare system will have too many negative repercussions on our economy

10) I don't want to deal with cranky government employees more than I have to

11) If it resembles the care in the Veteran's Hospitals: no thank you.

12) I'd rather carry my own weight, buy my own insurance based on MY underwriting criteria and pay premiums for ME rather than subsidize others through my taxes...I already do that and it's called Medicare and Medicad and my taxes are keeping me from achieving my financial goals. I want to be generous with MY money on MY TERMS.

13) I am a free thinker and want less government in my life on every level. I want only the basic minimum.

14) If anyone has read the story "The Ant and the Grasshopper" a public medical plan such as this will attract all the "ants." We already have more people on Medicare/Medicad than the system can handle: that's why it's becoming bankrupt. It'll attract those who have no cares for tomorrow and will want a "nanny government" to take care of them - cradle to grave. I am not saying this to be mean and uncharitable but I am sure those of you who are saving to get married, have a family or buy a home know how elusive it is and that if only you didn't have so much taken out of your pay for govt. programs YOU'D be able to breathe easier and have the basic things in life so many people take for granted.

I have to agree actually that the US could not handle nor implement socialized healthcare at this point. Socialized healthcare does work (but usually a 2-tier model is best). Most countries in Europe are fine with it. Also note that obesity and preventable illness is *generally* not as great of a problem in most European countries. Canada is not that bad either in the grand scheme of things. I can say this with experience using the system. Granted, if Canadians let their health go down the tubes and their waistbands increase, the system will crumble. That's just common sense. You can only milk a cow for so long if you don't give it a chance to rest and produce more milk.

The US is not set up to run socialized healthcare for many reasons, ranging from current government to past practices. Obesity is killing the nation (2/3 of people are overweight/obese). 18 million Amercians have Type 2 diabetes (largely preventable) and millions of others have it but are undiagnosed. By the time those with the condition get proper care, their healthcare costs are through the roof to save their lives. People with Type 2 diabetes (unlike Type 1) can go for years without treatment. Are they not diagnosed because they don't have access to a doctor in the first place? Could they have prevented their Type 2 diabetes if they had coverage to see a dietician when they first began to gain weight? Probably. Perhaps we need to blame both those who abuse their health and also those who do nothing to help the less educated. It may not be PC, but the fact is that some people have low IQs. and/or education They honestly may not understand how important it is to eat properly. I don't think 2/3 of the US is mentally challenged, so obviously there is personal choice here for the majority, but perhaps a percentage of those people could be helped. In Canada, we have shifted towards preventative medicine. The US seems to employ a model of "after the fact" care which treats people who are already very sick, even if steps could have been taken to prevent the illness from progressing. Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

Based on how the US operates, and the current state of unhealthy lifestyles, I have to say that I don't know what the plan should be. I think there is hope for the future if a plan is made now. I DO know that it is truly sad to see young people with non-preventable illesses suffer and die because there is no plan in place for them. Not everyone can be lawyers and doctors. A cashier without health insurance through work wouldn't be able to afford treatment for cancer. Is it right that she dies simply because of her occupation? Maybe some people think it's survival of the fittest, brightest, etc. so this is OK. I just think it's sad....

DOLL WROTE:

Here, if I were a doctor in Canada, if an overweight patient comes to me, I can refer them to an exercise program and dietician. In the US, they hand out useless and dangerous "diet pills" like candy. And people get fatter and fatter until they have a massive heart attack and are now disabled.

________________________
I've been reading along and just have to add.
I've struggled with being obese all my life.
eaten well and swam for my health 4 times a week.
the only way I could lose weight was after being FINALLY dx'd with celiac's after 20 years of IBS dx!

I guess i'm just kinda tired of the 'simplification' of the general population that obese people do not care, are not trying to take care of their health and the topper..HAVE NO WILL POWER.
Just my opinion and had to speak up.
JUDY

I'm not saying *everyone* who is obese chose that. There are medical reasons someone can be overweight. However, these are RARE cases. Most people have NO medical reason. Even with the 1 in 133 stats, less than 1% of Americans have Celiac Disease. I have heard that the 1 in 133 stat is even a little high. Please note that I am not referring to those who actually are obese and have a medical reason (if Celiac was the cause of why you were overweight).

A full 2/3 (or is it 3/4 now?) of the US is overweight. Many of those are African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and Indians, all people who have a low incidence of Celiac. In some cultues, being obese is now considered a "normal" weight. I doubt your heart thinks so!

I am talking about those who *say* they follow a healthy diet, and then go home and eat 2000 more calories than they think. There was a person on a TV show that said they ate salad and beans all day and had no idea why they were fat. A hidden camera caught them ordering in SIX (!) buckets of KFC!

I'm not saying this is the case with you, but many people are in denial about their weight and their habits, period. Yes, some people are naturally bigger despite a healthy diet and exercise, and others have a medical reason for their weight (rare). But more often than not, it *is* a choice.

I have seen numerous people claim they were "genetically fat". As soon as they were told they had Type 2 diabetes and would likely die blind and amputated, they "magically" got serious and LOST THE WEIGHT they said they couldn't lose! What does that say?

I am glad you got your Celiac Dx and were able to get yourself healthy. Just remember that most people who are obese are not obese because of Celiac or any known medical problem. People eat too much and exercise too little, period. I take good care of myself, we all should. We only get one body. It's important to exercise and eat right no matter what your size. This is what is important. However, *most* people who do this tend to not be overweight.

This is all resonating eerily for me. My healthy, 56 year-old brother-in-law suffered a massive stroke last September, and has been in a long-term care hospital here in Ottawa since then. Nothing has awakened me to the plight of our broken health-care system like what I have seen in this hospital each time I am there with him. Lack of resources adds up to lack of care. But things got really interesting when I became aware of the bariatric program that is in place at this hospital, and others. Morbidly obese people can be admitted to these hospitals and for thousands upon thousands of our health-care dollars, be taken care of. I see how little my brother-in-law is tended to, how few his vital physiotherapy sessions are, how difficult it is to get one nurse into his room more than once a day to change him. Then I see a "patient" like the one in the link below, with a special $7500.00 lift, $42,000.00 bed, and wheelchair that's too expensive to mention. She has physio five days a week...my brother-in-law is lucky if he's seen twice. She requires four nurses to move and tend to her in her bed, while he requires one. No wonder there are no nurses available to help him eat, or to change him! They are all needed in her room! Something is seriously wrong here; we all pay for each other's health care, and I do not want to pay for a patient like her. She should be on a 1,200 calorie a day eating plan. That's the treatment. Some counselling for the addiction, okay. In the American system at least we would not all be paying for this woman...SHE would have to pay for herself.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/c...k=48139&p=1

I'm so new to this copy and pasting...I do hope that is a direct link!

Good point and know that I agree with you (I said earlier that people who practice unhealthy habits should pay for their own healthcare).

In the US, people who share the same insurance plan with a woman like this (provided she would have insurance) would also have to foot the bill.

While I'm glad someone's doing something about her obesity, it doesn't say much about the world we live in when someone has so little control over what they eat that they have to reroute or band their digestive system....

Sorry to hear about your Brother in law.

This is not so..to a point the expense would get blanketed over all the policy holders (just like socialism) but first SHE'D have a rate increase on her renewal premium. Or her employer would get socked with a higher premium for the experience of his "group." In USA the health cost DOES get back to the patient through higher health insurance rates, unfortunately however, for those who are desperately ill through no fault of their own.

My name is Deb and I am overweight (he he)

I was always overweight by anywhere from 15-60 lbs. - catch me at any moment and I am somewhere in that range. This being said I am in great health! I have blood pressure of 120/70 or less at times - cholesterol under 200, esp. the good cholesterol.. Doctors marvel over my numbers because I am atypical. I feel that in many cases problems from being overweight are exaggerated ...isn't it so or they tell me that people in France eat much more animal fats than Americans do? Cheeses, croissants, pastries, etc. It's more than people being overweight. It's not so much a health crisis but people are truly now aware of the toll life takes on your body and are looking for answers from medicine. Perhaps in past people weren't so aware of their health status.


Yes, doctors have told me to lose weight but no doctor ever prescribed me diet pills, even when I wanted Zenical or something like that I was told I wasn't heavy enough (presciption plan wouldn't pay for it.). At one point I went on Atkins and lost 38 lbs. It really worked but it's hard to stay on. I don't lose weight on low fat diets unless I am below 1000 calories a day - very difficult to stay on too and does it matter when I am a healthy and hearty person and continue to be so?

Several years ago I went to the Humane Society with a friend as she wanted an unwanted dog. She had to pay $75 for a "used" dog. I asked the Society why the fee and they answered : if you get something for nothing you treat it like that: like it's nothing. When there's a fee, the person doing the purchasing has more of a stake in it and a bond of responsiblity is created. Free health care is like adopting a pet then. When that bond isn't made it's abused and overused and taken for granted and tossed away. But having to achieve health with sweat from your brow will make you hold it more dear to you. Perhaps in Canada certain procedures should have a copay to show people that this is serious and that it's not to be taken lightly or sucked up like pigs at a trough. Health care should be approached with reverent respect. (In insurance terms it could be considered a "moral" hazard when the only people buying and using the insurance are claimants, but I digress).


As for people who are working at jobs without insurance..it's a horrible thing to have to go through. I only wish I had an answer - I know what the answer isn't: it isn't instituting a govt program to part me from my money - I'm telling you now that I can't afford anymore govt programs. Perhaps govt will organize a program for these that fell though the cracks - that I'll certainly listen to and if it makes sense perhaps approve. I know about cracks in system as my husband and I too fell through them with his health.

I have a friend who had a lot of part time jobs without insurance and she had ulcers...she needed meds but had no income nor husband..just herself..her kids abandoned her...she needed meds and I know that pharmaceutical companies have programs to help indigent/working poor obtain drugs they need. So she applied to the companies who made her prescriptions and they came through for her.

The pharmaceutical companies really do care.
My sister works for big pharma and I watched a program her company made& put together (not for general public's viewing) and they interviewed some patients who took their cancer drugs & got better and at the end the pharma employees actually cheered the patients and the leader of the group of pharma people shouted something like "we do it all for you - the patient!" It was so nice I almost cried when it was rolling. My sister worked on the production of that film. So they are all not heartless creatures only trolling for money.



Just musing.